Join me, Margie Bryce, as I sit down with Jason Moore, an innovative ministry leader merging faith with the digital frontier. We unravel the complex relationship between artificial intelligence and spiritual outreach, sharing how AI like ChatGPT can amplify the echoes of our sermons to a tech-embraced congregation. Grappling with potential ethical dilemmas, we navigate how tradition weds innovation, ensuring our messages are not just spoken but truly absorbed.
Our conversation dispels myths and illuminates how these technologies offer small churches the chance to craft bespoke designs without breaking the bank. It’s a tale of transformation—where AI becomes a beacon of hope for pastors seeking to tailor their message with authenticity and legal peace of mind.
The episode culminates in a heartfelt exploration of hybrid worship and the sustainable practices vital for ministries to flourish. I unveil my struggle to modernize worship in a quest to resonate with today’s digital congregants and share personal anecdotes of self-care through stained-glass artistry. With Jason Moore by my side, we affirm the importance of evolving worship to touch the hearts of those seeking a spiritual connection, breathing new life into the sacred spaces of the 21st century.Support the show
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Transcript
Margie: 0:01
Hey there, Margie Bryce here, bringing you the Crabby Pastor podcast, and I don’t think you’re going to be too surprised to know that it’s too easy today to become the Crabby Pastor. Our time together will give you food for thought to help you be the ministry leader, fully surrendered to God’s purposes and living into whatever it takes to get you there and keep you there. So we’re talking about sustainability in ministry. This is Margie Bryce here and I am the host of the Crabby Pastor podcast and I am excited to be here today because I always, like I like technology. I’m kind of a nerd about that. I have been always and we don’t go into my age because that’s a state secret and I would have to kill people if I told you but I have always kind of been on the early adapter kind of mindset for these things. And I have a guest here with me that I think you’re going to really be intrigued with today because we’re going to be talking about artificial intelligence, ai. I know that Christianity today just recently had that as a cover story. That was pretty interesting and I’ve been sort of flanking around with it and just kind of seeing what makes it sing. But I have Jason Moore here with me and Jason. I’m going to let you introduce yourself.
Jason: 1:38
All right. Well, it is so good to be with you. I’m thrilled to have this conversation today. Well, my name is Jason Moore. I’m an author and a speaker and a consultant and a coach. I’m also a graphic artist and a media producer, and so I got my start in ministry about 25 years ago at a large United Methodist Church in Ohio called Ginghamsburg United Methodist Church, where I was on staff as the graphic artist and part of the media ministry there, and I, too, have always had a bit of a penchant for using technology in the church, not just because I think technology is cool and all those kinds of things, but I really strive to help churches, and the churches I worked for create deep, meaningful worship that is creative, and technology allows us to be more creative and create the opportunity, I think, to make what we do really attractive and valuable to people who might not know our story, and so I always say that it’s not creativity for the sake of creativity, but for the sake of transformation, and when about a year ago a little over a year ago now I saw some of the new AI tools that were coming out, I just thought there’s an opportunity here. Well, let me back up and say I thought, oh my gosh, this is scary because I’m a graphic artist and I thought you’re not going to need me anymore. But then I started to dig a little deeper. I thought there’s something here for the church. So I have really spent the last year and a half almost working to learn these tools and then teach others in the church how to use them and what they are and the ups and downs and all those things.
Margie: 3:21
Right, right. Well, some of what you said reminded me that the goal of any message that you give whether it’s some other kind of teaching or whether you’re preaching on a Sunday the goal of that is not just to get your message said in the way that makes sense to you, but to get it heard. And so if you are talking to an audience that is heavily visually oriented, you need to be speaking that, in the same way that If you’re standing up in front of the group and you’re speaking the most eloquent French that you could possibly speak, but the audience is Spanish speaking people, then so what you know, you’re getting your message said but not heard, which I feel like you know I can carp about some as someone who, before called a ministry, did marketing communications work. So you do think intently about how the audience is going to receive what you’re going to say, and I was trained that even in seminary they said that kind of stuff which I was excited about. So, yeah, but AI, this is a whole different thing because, yeah, I’ve looked at that and thought about graphic designers, which I worked with for years and even had my administrative assistants had graphic design backgrounds and could work Photoshop and make it Sing and everything.
Jason: 4:46
Yeah.
Margie: 4:47
So I wondered. I thought, wow, what’s going to happen here and with any new, any new technology? And I’ve just come off of reading the coming wave to try to get a sense of what. What the people are saying about what this is going to is always pros and cons, right, but on for this, the sake of this podcast, we want to talk about what the top three things are that Jason thinks that ministry leaders need to know about AI. Because here’s an interesting thing to my youngest son, who is a millennial, he’s in his 30s, professional, and I said to him, after spending some time on chat GPT and all of this, I said to him are you using chat GPT at all? Are you? Because I could see how it would be very quick. If you’re good at giving instructions, it would be very quick for you to have some outlining done. It could punch up what your Writing. I kind of double dip because my show notes are it goes through chat GPT or no. They self generate, and then I will even read it and then throw it through chat GPT again and say tighten up the language on this and this or make it more, whatever. So, but my son said, well, that’s cheating. Yeah, I was.
Jason: 6:20
Yeah, I, I certainly understand that mentality. I’ve heard it a lot and actually I’m teaching a course right now for my alma mater, the modern College of Design near Dayton Ohio, and they’ve actually asked me to sit on a panel next week talking about AI and how does it affect us as graphic designers and artists and all those kinds of things. There’s a lot of question around is it cheating and and what’s the line? And you know all those things. I think those are important questions to ask. I just let a training last night For the, the greater Northwest area of the United Methodist Church so Oregon and Alaska and some some other places and Pacific Northwest and someone asked, as I showed them some of the things that I’ve been able to generate with AI. They’re like do you still need to study to be a graphic artist? And I said, absolutely. You still need to understand those skills because, number one, AI still doesn’t get it right a lot of times, but, number two, you’ll never recognize what is good design, what are good fonts, what are good color schemes, what is good layout if you don’t. You know, learn those skills. And so my mantra and this is something I’m not a safe to say later, but I’m just gonna start off with it Is that AI should be a do it not do it for you, but a do it with you. And I think too many people have this misconception that you just you hit a button and hit return and it spits out this most incredible content and and so I think that’s a misconception that well, you can use it that way, but you’re gonna get really bad content if you do that. I don’t think it’s cheating, because I do think there’s a conversation that is happening. And I’ll also say this I got my start in the last year. I got my start in my ministry, in my career as a graphic artist. As I said, and I have known since I was in third grade, that I wanted to be an artist. When I grew up, I didn’t know exactly what that meant, but I could draw a pretty photo, realistic. I people would hire me to do portraits and paintings and those kinds of things, and I remember when I went, decided that I wanted to go to art school. In order to get into the school, I had to draw some pictures and things to to, you know, be accepted. And then, you know, as I was accepted and we got into our first classes and they started talking to us about using Adobe Photoshop and Adobe illustrator and I was scared to death that I was gonna lose my skills because, like, if I wasn’t using pencil and paper, I mean or brushes and paints, like, am I still an artist if I’m using the computer to do that? And what I eventually learned was that it didn’t take very long, that this is just a more sophisticated tool paint brush. It’s a more sophisticated toolbox for me to use and I’ll tell you that my initial reactions to a I want to first saw what could be done scared me a little bit and I thought, my goodness, nobody’s gonna need me anymore. But the more I’ve played with it, the more I’ve dug into it, the more I realized that it’s a very much more sophisticated paint brush and all of my skills. Somebody said to me yesterday on social media Social media because AI is really bad about doing text right now. It doesn’t really understand text and so if you ask it to generate an image, a lot of times it spells things wrong or it’s way off. But I’m often able to take it into Photoshop and fix it. Like I can build, rebuild letters or take different parts of different things and someone’s like I want to know how you do that. And I said, well, it’s 25 years as a designer. That allows me to do that, like I. You know there are some things you can’t just click a button and it’s gonna happen in that way. So you know, the first thought that I have and the first thing I wanted to just say when you talk about the first three things is number one. It’s not as scary as you think it is. I know, at least for me. I was very scared of the technology. I signed up for a mid journey account. Mid journey is one of the probably the top, or it’s. It’s now rivaling what’s happening with a program called dolly three which runs out of chat GPT. It’s an image generator. I signed up for a mid journey account and didn’t use it for almost a month because I was really afraid of what it was going to mean for me to play with AI. I’m not afraid of what it means for me to play with AI and the more that I have had the opportunity to understand the tools, the more comfortable I’ve gotten. And I’ve had the opportunity over the last several months to lead a number of trainings and I’ve seen these small church pastors in rural areas you know they don’t have big budgets come to these trainings where I’m demystifying the tools and they walk away really, really excited about what. Wow, I didn’t know it was this easy to use. I didn’t know that I could accomplish this. I thought I had to be more technical. You know all those kinds of things, and so I think my encouragement to anybody who’s listening to our conversation is to just try it, because you will find out in trying it that it’s not as scary as maybe you might think that it is Sure.
Margie: 11:35
Sure, and I would think that would be a real benefit to, like you said, the rural pastors that I mean. If you live close to a city situation, you might be able to find people with graphic design experience, but still, sometimes your budget is limited. If you’re a small church pastor and you can create pretty easily what you need for worship for your church, so that’s a huge, huge benefit right there, because I just I think about the pastors that don’t have access to that or they go online and you know there’s places where you can download that kind of thing and it’s free and it’s acceptable use, but this would be something that would be extremely tailored to your congregation.
Jason: 12:28
Yeah, absolutely. And you know I don’t want to get too hung up on just the graphic stuff, because that’s one aspect of AI that’s really great. There’s a lot of really great content generation and sharpening what you do, and all that. But I’ll say this that there are a number of churches that I work with that are small or medium sized. As a coach and a consultant, that might have in the budget enough to buy a stock photo or two for a series. You know, like we’re going to have a series and we want to have a main graphic for that that’s going to go on the bulletin or going to go on our screens or whatever. Well, a typical stock image costs somewhere between $25 and, you know, $50. It depends on where you buy it and what it is and all that kind of stuff. But you know, I think $30 is sort of a median price range. Chat GPT, the pro version, which will now generate images, is $20 a month. So for the cost of one stock photo, you have the ability to generate just about anything that you can think of. And here’s what I have found and I think is so exciting about AI is that finding images of biblical scenes and things that you’re trying to illustrate. It’s pretty tough to find those things Like I can’t just go to Shutterstock and find an image of you know Moses parting the Red City or whatever Hard to find that photo, and they’re out there, but a lot of times they’re cheesy and you know all that kind of stuff. The thing is is I can go to AI, mid journey or Dali or stable diffusion, some of these different apps, and I can describe the scene and it can build it. If we weren’t on an audio only situation here, I would show you some images that I’ve been able to generate of scenes like that and that’s pretty incredible. So you know, that would lead to the kind of the second big idea that I think that some folks don’t realize, and that is that it’s cheaper than you think. So it’s not as scary as you think, but also it’s a lot cheaper than you might think. There are free chatbots that you can use, so chat GPT gets most of the press these days. It’s sort of the one that led out of the gate and changed the scene a year ago, back in November of last year’s, when chat GPT came out. There is also a free program called Claude Claude, ai CLAUDE, and basically does the same thing, but you can use that and chat with it and help you to organize thoughts and brainstorm and edit and just all those things. Bard BARD is another that’s Google’s offering, and it can now generate images as well. So you can go to Bard and type in what image you want to create and it’ll create it for you. And the beauty of this is that Google has said that any images you create with their platform have no copyright concerns and that if you are ever taken to court, they will actually defend you. This is a statement that they put out about a month, maybe three weeks ago, and just yesterday there was an open AI who is the company behind chat. Gpt also announced that they are going to stand behind every image and all the content you generate so that if you ever find yourself in a legal situation, they will defend you. So I think that helps some people feel a lot more comfortable knowing that the things I’m creating, I’m not ripping somebody off, I’m not infringing on anyone’s rights, but that I’m able to do that. So in the long run, that doesn’t cost you anything either, because then you’re not worried about lawsuits and that kind of thing.
Margie: 16:15
And that’s just. I mean, it’s just a pain when you’re looking for stuff.
Jason: 16:19
Yes, it is, it is. It’s a big pain, so that’s really a relief. Yeah, I was going to say because I’ve known churches who have used images that they just found on the web without copyright clearance and have ended up having things taken down or cease and desist letters being sent. Or I’ve even known of churches that were sued for copyright infringement for using images that didn’t belong to them. And you know, for 20 bucks a month or even free, because you can go to Bard and some of these other services and generate images. Always read the EU LA, the end user license agreement, to be sure, but you have the ability to do that, so it’s not as scary as we think, it’s not as expensive as we think it might be. And the last one that I would say is that it is not as technical as you think it might be. Some people say to me at these trainings that I do I’m really intimidated by AI Because I’m not very technical, I’m not very tech savvy, I don’t really understand technology very well, and so on. But the beauty of what’s happened with AI in the last year is that it employs a type of technology that is called natural language learning, and so basically what AI has done through these neural networks that they developed is it’s taught the computer, it’s taught AI, artificial intelligence, how to speak like us and understand language as we talk. So natural language processing means that you just go to chat GPT and you talk to it like you’re talking to a person. You don’t have to be a scientist or a coder or an engineer or any of those things. I go to the chat GPT and I say, here’s what I’m trying to accomplish and can you help me, and all those things, and it will do it. I’ve had people, like I said, that don’t know a thing about graphic art, that say to me I’ve been able to generate what’s in my head for the first time because I didn’t have the ability to do that, and I think, again, that’s just a wonderful thing for small churches, churches without huge budgets, churches that don’t have access to skilled graphic artists, and things like that. I still think that those are super important skills. I mean, I am a graphic artist, I don’t want to go away, but there’s just a beauty in the ability to take advantage of these tools. One quick story, I’ll just tell you that I think opened the eyes for a lot of people and I share this in all of my trainings. I was working with the pastor out of Tennessee about a month and a half ago and we were doing this event where we wanted to start with worship and this particular message was based on Jeremiah 18, where Jeremiah is looking for a word from the Lord and he goes to the potter’s house and finds the potter there at the wheel crafting something and becomes misshapen and the potter takes that clay and reforms it and the word of the Lord comes to Jeremiah that we are like clay in the hands of the potter. So we did this whole service kind of based on that. We actually gave people play dough containers and they got to sculpt a prayer and do some other things and it was. It was really pretty neat service. But the pastor was telling this story about his own sort of potter’s house moment. He said you know, I was 13 years old, my parents wanted to take us on a vacation. When you’re 13, you don’t want to go on vacation with your parents. You know, you’re too cool for all that stuff. And my parents wanted to take us to a Native American reservation Cherokee village somewhere in North Carolina. And he said I just thought this was going to be so stupid and I didn’t want to go, and and he said we were walking around and I didn’t want to tell my parents, but it’s kind of cool. And this Native American chief or something came out and sort of this gathering area and he came out and he took some clay and put it onto a wheel and began to pump that wheel and it spun and he said they didn’t even like him. His memory was they didn’t really even make an announcement. People just sat down on benches and watched this guy. So he started crafting this pot, but the wheel began to spin too fast and all of a sudden the clay became wobbly and it broke off into three pieces and hit the ground and all of a sudden he said, you know, like we were just mesmerized. All of a sudden he went and took those pieces and he collected them and there was grass and some of it and little bits and dirt and you know, rocks and stuff. But he took all that clay, reformed it and and and made something and I said, hey, do you have a picture of that? That’s a great story. He’s like you know, back in the eighties we didn’t carry around cameras with us everywhere and I was 13. So, no, I don’t have a picture of it. So I went to artificial intelligence. I went to mid journey and I described this scene of a Native American man you know the way he described him with his headdress on and crafting a pot on a potter’s wheel, and I generated this image and it was quite incredible just to watch people react to it. Of course, they didn’t know it was AI generated, but it was. I could see people lean in and I know that we’re only including the audio here, but just so you can see, this is the image that I generated. You’re seeing this on Zoom right now.
Margie: 21:43
Oh, yes, I am Listeners can see it.
Jason: 21:46
So you know, this image came up and I even I prompted it in a way that I asked it to sort of capture the color scheme of an old Kodak Instamatic camera. So the colors are kind of muted and all that. And so anyway, we did this and I watched people in the room just sort of lean in when that moment happened. And the next day I led a short workshop on AI and I showed them. I said so the image that you saw in that moment was the I generated and I said how do you feel about that? And some people are like you know that brought that story to life. For me, in fact, it was one of the most memorable moments. I loved it. And then some people are like I’m not real sure if I’m comfortable with that being AI and I thought, okay, I think that’s fair. And then I remembered growing up. I grew up about five blocks from the church that I attended from junior high on and I was kind of a nerdy church kid. So sometimes in the summer I go down and walk, walk down to the church. And I remember being in the secretary’s office one day and she asked me if I would take some mail and lay it on the pastor’s desk. Who was out the lunch and I was like sure. So I went and laid this mail on the desk and on the desk was a book that was something like 1001 sermon illustrations and I opened up that book just for so I’d never seen that book before I opened it up and I remember kind of thumbing through it and it was like there was a story in that book that I remembered the pastor told one time, but I thought it was like his story, like from vacation or whatever, and for just a second I was like, oh my gosh, that’s inauthentic, like that’s not cool. And then I realized that no, he just used that story. I mean, it took me. I didn’t all happen in that moment, but as I reflected on it and reflected as an adult, that just brought the story to life and helped us experience the gospel in a whole new way. And so that’s my take on AI is that if you can bring a story like that Native American village story to life through an image that’s generated and biblical stories and all the things that we might say when we do worship, there is great power in that. Now I also think that we have to be careful about these tools, because they can be dangerous too. The other metaphor that I’ve used is that AI is a little bit like an axe. An axe is a great tool for cutting down trees and preparing firewood and breaking it up into smaller pieces and that kind of thing. There are probably other ways to do it. You could knock it down with a big rock or something and brute force, whatever, but an axe is a great way to do that. But the problem with an axe is that if you don’t learn how to swing it right, you can chop off your toe or smack yourself in the face or hurt your back or whatever. So we have to learn how to wield an axe in order to prepare firewood, to make good fires. We have to do the same with AI. We have to have respect for the tool because it’s powerful. And then the other thing is that some people will take an axe and they’ll swing it at someone else and they’ll use it as a weapon. That doesn’t mean that we should ban axes, but it means that we should, I think, advocate for how do we ethically and responsibly use these tools. Sure.
Margie: 24:59
I’m going to put a lot of the links that you mentioned into the show notes and probably also the coming wave book, because there’s a lot of discussion about that, about how it needs to be managed. And the other thing I want to say, before it falls out of my head or something, is that when Jesus told parables, did anybody go up to Jesus and say did you actually know the farmer that sewed that? Did you actually know the woman who lost the coin? No, these were all you know. They were parables to illustrate what the kingdom of God was about and. Jesus used stories.
Jason: 25:37
Yep, and you know we had a little pre-conversation before we started recording today. I’m just a big believer in the power of image. There’s a great 2008 study that found that we are 65% digital learners as a culture, and learning increases by 400% when you use image to teach, and that data has borne out over the years. I mean, they continue to update the study and my guess is that it’s probably even higher now. I haven’t checked in on that study in a while, but if you want to take what you do as a preacher to the next level, then you’ll use images, just like Jesus did. In fact, I quote this all the time. My favorite verse to talk about when I think about worship is Mark 4.33, which says many similar parables. Jesus spoke the word to them as much as they could understand. He did not say anything without using a parable, but when he was alone with his disciples, he explained everything. So, according to Mark’s gospel, every time Jesus taught he used a parable. What’s a parable? It’s a story or an image, and not every. I mean those stories. Not everybody got it. Sometimes parables were more about raising questions that would cause you to chew on what you heard than having all the answers, but then I think for other people it just illuminated this big idea and they would encounter it again. So when we think about what we’re doing in the church and trying to inspire people into living their lives in a new way. Images have power to take the gospel message and make it something. I call it the mustard seed moment, because you can bet that anybody after the day Jesus picked up that mustard seed and said your face should be like this, anybody that saw mustard seed from that day forward, if they were there that day, remembered the lesson that was tied to it, and so oh for sure, for sure, yeah, so with AI, I think we have the ability to give people these kind of visual mustard seeds and, again, we’ve spent a lot of time talking about images. But one of the really great things about ChatGPT is that it’s a really excellent worship planning resource, and so I love to use it. In fact, I just finished a resource set for Advent for a group, and I have written a whole lot of calls to worship over the years that are more kind of contemporary, and so I sat down with ChatGPT and I said I want to train you on what a call to worship is and how I write it. Are you ready for that? And, of course, give me an example. So I uploaded four calls to worship that I had written and I said I want you to just analyze these, analyze my tone, and it immediately picked up on here’s after looking at a few of them, here’s kind of the pattern that I see. And it walked through that pattern and I said, okay, great, now I’m working on a new series and I would love some help with generating calls to worship. So this is the scripture I’m looking at. This is the metaphor that I’m using. This is where I would like to get people and this is sort of a basic idea of what I’d like to capture. Do you understand? Of course it understood, and so it helped with my partnership with it. And there was a lot of back and forth, right, the first drafts of some of these calls to worship and I was able to do some additional adaptation, but it saved me a lot of time in writing kind of the first draft of those things. And then here’s something I’m not as well versed at traditional calls to worship. I’m more of a contemporary worship guy than a traditional leader and people kind of thing and so I took some existing traditional calls to worship and I fed those into chat GPT and I said okay, so there’s different style called a worship. That would be more traditional. I want you to analyze these and understand them, do you understand? Of course I understood and I said okay. So now I want to create some calls to worship based on the other ones that we wrote. So there’s this resource, you can do a more contemporary version or a more traditional version. And I had it right, or work with me to write those things and they were like spot on to that style, which is not a style that I normally write in, and it really helped me to, and I shared them with people who very much are into that style of worship and they’re like these are great. How’d you do this again? So, chat, gpt is an excellent creative partner. This is another line that I say all the time, and that is that we have to remember this you have a soul. Ai does not have a soul. So you have to bring your soul to the conversation for there to be a soul in the conversation. And if I had just gone to AI and said I need you to write a call to worship based on this scripture, then it would put. It would put something out, but it would be really shallow. There’s no soul in it, because I’m farming out the creativity to AI rather than I had a long back and forth, where I’m bringing in my intent, what I hope to achieve. Here’s the scripture, here’s how we do this. This is what it is, and so the last thing I’ll say here is that AI is a conversation. It’s not just a query, it’s not just a command, and the more conversation you have with it, the better the content is that you get from it. So I hope that again, listeners as they’re thinking about playing with these tools, will not think of it as a magic machine where you hit a button and it just spits it out. My friend, kenny Jang, who does a lot of work in this space, says it’s not just a magic vending machine, and I think that’s a visual metaphor.
Margie: 31:11
For sure, and the challenge will be for pastors that work exclusively on their own and have not been part of a collaborative, creative team, of allowing that kind of collaboration to happen. So that will be a little bit of a different walk on the wild side maybe, but for them but I was used to it early on, before I had my own marketing communications company, I had to write for a boss and she would hack away at what I did and we would eventually work it out and I learned as I went along. So it’s a little bit of role reversal in that regard, but interesting, helpful tool in the moments when you are feeling a little overwhelmed or whatever, and you say here’s a bunch of ideas. Can you put this in a logical outline order for me and direct it in the exact kind of help and I understand that that’s going to be a whole segment of work as people that can prompt GPT to get it to do and yield what they need it to do, because that’s a key part of it. But I want to thank you very much for dipping our toe in the water of AI and I will put lots of links in the show notes. And I’m thinking as well because we talked beforehand and I would really like to have you back on to talk about hybrid worship and how to leverage, because I keep saying to people who are not function like, I think, a church that I was familiar with recently I don’t think we made it out of the 19th century. For the songs, I’m like it’s the 21st century. Not only is it the 21st century, but it’s been that way for 23 years now. Just about you know, and so you’re kind of like in hybrid challenges that, so that you can connect with people who have not been connected before to Jesus.
Jason: 33:21
So, absolutely. Well, I’d be happy to come back and chat another time about that.
Margie: 33:27
Okay, all right. Thank you very much for being on the Crabby Pastor podcast.
Jason: 33:34
Thanks for having me. It’s been a pleasure.
Margie: 33:37
Hey friends, the Crabby Pastor Podcast is sponsored by Bryce Art Glass and you can find that on Facebook. I make stained glass, that’s part of my self-care and also by Bryce Coaching, where I coach ministry leaders and business leaders, and so the funds that I generate from coaching and from making stained glass is what is supporting this podcast and I will have opportunities for you to be a part of sponsoring me and, as always, you can do the buy me a cup of coffee thing in the in the show notes. But I will have some other ways that you can be a part of getting the word out about the importance of healthy self-care for ministry leaders. Hey, thanks for listening. It is my deep desire and passion to champion issues of sustainability in ministry and for your life, so I’m here to help. I stepped back from pastoral ministry and I feel called to help ministry leaders create and cultivate sustainability in their lives so that they can go the distance with God and whatever plans that God has for you. I would love to help, I would consider it an honor and, in all things, make sure you connect to these sustainability practices, you know, so that you don’t become the crabby pastor.
